Frank Goldsmith '67

Severine Stier: We are recording this zoom chat, because we want to preserve this interview in the college archives. And before we like before we do that we do want to articulate some of what I mean, we're going to send you a formal form.

Dahlia Krutkovich: A release.

SS: A release form that will basically indicate whether or not you're comfortable with us preserving the either the video or the audio or both for the college archives, for like ever.

Frank Goldsmith: That depends on how I do.

SS: Okay, so I'll send that to you after that's just a formality. But we are recording this if that's alright with you.

FG: Yes, yes.

DK: Yeah, and for more formality, I'm kind of required to read this bit at the beginning here. So the recording of this interview will be made and the transcription will be added to the Davidson College archives.

These materials will be made available for research by scholars for scholarly publication and for other related research purposes consistent with Davidson's mission and regulated according to any restrictions placed on their use by the interviewee or interviewer. The names of the interviewers are Severine Stier and Dahlia Krutkovich. The name of the narrator is Frank Goldsmith. The location of the interview, we're in Davidson Are you in Asheville, sir?

FG: Well, technically, I'm in Fairview, which is just outside of Asheville, so rural community and Bochum County, just outside of Asheville.

DK: Fair enough.

FG: Asheville is close enough.

DK: The date is March 7, 2019th.. The purpose of this interview is to preserve the testimonials of Jewish students, or Jewish alumni of Davidson College, and I'm going to ask for your oral consent for this to be recorded.

FG: I consent.

DK: Wonderful.

SS: Perfect

DK: Okay, great.

SS: Thank you

DK: So now we can start. Thank you so much for talking to us today.

FG: I'm happy to do that.

SS: Good. Yeah, it's, it's it means so much to us. We're on spring break right now. So we're trying to get a lot of these completed, and it's been really fun meeting people via video chat. So...

FG: Yeah. Are you on campus by the way?

SS/DK: We are.

FG: Okay. Yeah, And I see the Davidson colors on your...

DK: Oh, yeah. I purposely dressed up for this interview.

SS: And I wear my red jacket, but you can't really see.

FG: Oh, yeah. Well, I'm drinking coffee from a Brown University...

SS: Oh.

FG: Mug here.

DK: We'll have to forgive you.

FG: It's where my son teaches. That's why I got it.

SS: Oh...

DK: Fair enough.

SS: Yeah, that's fair. That's very fair. Okay, so just to start things off where, where were you? I guess, how did you learn about Davidson? Where are you originally from? And what was your relationship with Judaism like before you arrived here?

FG: Okay. Well, that's a number of questions...

SS: Sorry, that was a lot.

FG: I I grew up in Marion, which is a small town. It's the county seat of McDowell County. It's not far from Asheville. I don't know if you know where Marion is, but it's McDowell counties. 00:03:00So that's where I grew up. I had an uncle who attended Davidson. And I think that's why my interest was in attending Davidson. And... So I decided to apply and got in. The other schools I applied to were the Citadel, so I was infinitely happier at Davidson than I think I would have been at the Citadel, and also UNC and I just I thought Davidson was a, offered a superior education most likely. So that's why I decided to go there. And I guess I learned about the school probably from my uncle, or my father learned about it from him and, and they decided that that's where I should go.

So, in terms of Judaism, the interesting thing is I was not then Jewish. I'm, and I may have mentioned this in an email to someone, but I was, I'm a Jew by choice. I had done a lot of reading about religions. I had gone through this Odyssey in high school of, you know, becoming an atheist after I read Bertrand Russell's Why I'm not a Christian, which is an influential book. 00:04:00And I read a book by Gordon W. Allport, who was a sociologist, back then, about the it's called The Nature of Prejudice, and then I began just reading about religions.

And, you know, I... read about a lot of them.

The one that resonated with me the most was Judaism.

I grew up in a town, small town where there was only one other Jewish kid in high school. Well, I shouldn't say “other”-- I was not one of them at that point-- but Steve Goldstein, he became a lawyer and practices in Asheville, although he's retired now. And he was a seat ahead of me in the high school band. We both played cornet, and he was really good.

And so, there was not a huge Jewish community or a lot of ways to learn firsthand, you know, experientially about Judaism. I went to temple one time in high school with another friend from Old Ford, which is an even smaller community here. But...but in the reading by the time I got to Davidson my thoughts had gelled so much that apparently, I was identified.

I must have self-identified as Jewish when I went to Davidson, because I don't know how else Davidson would have known to contact me with this project and identify me as one of the people who was Jewish during his first year at Davidson.

I do remember that. My nickname you know, Davidson, then I don't know how it is now. We had 12 fraternities and every, you know, 90 some percent of the students were in fraternities. It was all male. This was in 1963, when I went there, and my nickname in my fraternity was Rabbi. And I think it was--

DK: Oh my god. Wait, sorry...

SS: Woah...

FG: It was sort of jocular. It was maybe in a teaching way because my interest in an affiliation with Judaism was well known enough.

So that-- that's how I was known to some people. And the other day, I had occasion to be going through a bunch of memorabilia in my office attic down in Marion. I left that law firm, and I'm still going through stuff and trying to...to sort out things. And I found I found this trove of letters from an English pen pal that I got when I was in the sixth grade, Mavis, and her name then was Harrison now it's Warner. And, and I found a letter she had written to me at...at my Davidson, P.O. box in 1964.

So, I don't remember the month. It would either have been in the second half of my freshman year or my sophomore year beginning of that. Address to quote, Rabbi Frank Goldsmith, P. O. Box 973, Davidson, NC. And... I say that only because it's some evidence that indeed I did identify... with Judaism when I came to Davidson, but, you know, there were, there really were no more Jewish students then at Davidson than there had been in high school. I remember... Arnie Goodstein from Charleston, was a year ahead of me, honestly cannot remember anyone else who was Jewish-- at that time, and so there was no Jewish presence on campus. Nobody really to relate to about it.

So that's, that's how things were.

And to sort of accelerate a little bit I went, I spent my junior year in France, in Montpellier, France, and I joined L'union de Juifs de Montpellier, and I worked on a French- speaking kibbutz, the year after that in the Negev, in Israel.

DK: Oh wow.

FG: It was a phenomenal experience. So, you know, that's as much connection with Judaism as I then had. And yeah... We can continue I mean, after you've asked questions.

DK: Yeah, of course.

FG: But I can I can tell you more about that Odyssey if you're interested in it later on.

DK: Yeah, I-- so the reason I had that reaction was because-- so part of our project is also going through all of the Davidsonians and reading about what-- basically just reading every Davidsonian and trying to look for instances of Jewish life, or mentions of Jews, or what have you. There's an “Around the Frats” column, I think where KA wrote about “Rabbi” and I thought I wasn't sure what that was. But...It's nice to meet you.

FG: KA wrote about “Rabbi”?

DK: Yeah... It might have been SAE, actually. I don't know. I was,

SS: Wait was this from the year?

DK: It might have been SAE, actually. I don't know. I was,

SS: This was from...the 60s...

FG: I was, I was in Sigma Nu....

SS/DK: Oh...

FG: So, I was not in KA or SAE. And I have no idea. If...

DK: I'll look back at that.

SS: I'm curious.

DK: I might be misremembering, but I do remember someone being referred to as “Rabbi.” And I remember taking a note of that and thinking, I wonder… I can't imagine this is good. But I'm glad it's a nickname, rather than...

FG: If it was in the period from ‘63 to ‘67. I don't know anybody else who was identified as “Rabbi.”

DK: Yeah...

SS: Other than yourself.

FG: Beside me... It's kind of ironic, because I've gone on to become a Torah reader and a leader of services and president synagogue. And so, I'm sometimes, you know, in kidding. call, I'm in an organization called Carolina Jews for justice.

DK: Mhm, yeah.

FG: social justice organization and, and I sometimes were asked to give a, you know, a reflection at the beginning of a meeting, and I, I pull something out of Jewish text. And so, they call me the rabbi for that. But I'm by no means a rabbi.

DK: Nonetheless, I was just wondering if you could just establish kind of like a timeline for us. 00:10:00So, would you say that your religious exploration really came into view late in high school, or...?

FG: Um, I think even probably by my sophomore year in high school.

I had early on decided that Christianity was not for me. And I just could not accept theologically, a lot of its premises. And so that led me to do all this reading, you know, and I read about other religions as well. You know, I read about Unitarianism. That seemed to be fairly neutral about some of the things I was concerned about. There were other motivations. I mean, I dated a Catholic girl for a while, while I was at Davidson, and so I would attend Mass, but I never really participated. You know, that did not resonate, resonate with me? So I think... my focus on Judaism really was established by late high school, I say, as a product of, of just exploration and reading.

DK: And the years you were at Davidson, were ‘63 to ‘67?

FG: Correct.

DK: Okay.

FG: Yeah, yeah, graduated ‘67. And there were some little intriguing connections with the family. I mean, I don't know that I have any familial connection with Judaism. But among the books that we retrieved from my grandmother's house was really an adoptive grandmother but was a cousin of my mother. There was a book in Hebrew, and that always fascinated me. Later, when I began to be able to read Hebrew, I discovered it was a New Testament, written in Hebrew, which is really odd.

And I--must surmise is that it may have been used as a vehicle for conversion for seeking to convert people to Christianity by making, putting the Christian scripture in, in a language that would be recognized as holy and authentic and so on, and not the original Greek.

It seems to be a pretty misguided idea if that's what it was. But I don't know if my family and my mother's family was on the receiving end or the converting end. You know I have no idea about that. And... and I asked her, and she had no idea what why that book was in the family. So but it was.

SS: Yeah.

FG: I still have it on my shelf here. It's from the late 1800s, printed in London.

DK: That's wild.

SS: That is wild. And like, so yeah, you, you started this religious exploration so early on in high school. Were you worried about coming to Davidson since at the time it–

DK: And continues to have

SS: And continues to have in the present such a connection to the Presbyterian faith? And did that at all, I guess, influence your decision? Were you worried about being able to explore your Jewish identity here?

FG: No, I don't think that really entered my mind to tell you the truth, because it was such a nascent, you know, undeveloped attraction to Judaism.

At that point, had been to temple one time in my life. I was certainly was not observant or practicing at all. And so I don't think I think I was just, you know, I came out of Marion High School. It's a small high school, not many people went to Davidson, and I think I was flattered to be able to be admitted and go to Davidson, so I don't think I was very concerned about that aspect of it. I mean, there were other reasons why I felt like I may, I may or may not fit in. I was already sort of a, you know, a liberal, if you will, and a progressive kind of person and Davison was a pretty conservative place back then.

DK: Yeah.

SS: Really?

DK: Yeah.

FG: I know. You' re astounded to hear that?

DK: Yeah. When you said the Citadel, I was just thinking about the compulsory ROTC service. But...

FG: Well, we...we had that.

DK: Yeah

FG: And you know, this was during the Vietnam War, so...

DK: Yep.

FG: Virtually everyone, I mean, you had to take the first two years of ROTC, and virtually everyone elected to take advanced, as they call it, ROTC and get a commission because, you know, otherwise, you were going to be a private

DK: Hmm...

FG: And so I did that as well.

SS: Ah...

DK: And I'm fairly certain mandatory Vespers services were abolished by this time, but by the time you came to Davidson, that is, do you remember if that was the case? Yeah...

FG: They actually were abolished during my time at Davidson.

DK: Oh really?

FG: So when I first went there,

SS: Okay.

FG: first two years, we had mandatory Vespers. We...daytime chapel, you had to attend church. I suppose a synagogue would have qualified had there been one anywhere near, around. You know, there, there certainly were some in Charlotte. But you had it was like class, you got a certain number of cuts.

SS: Oh.

FG: If you didn't go to church. And I'm not sure I don't remember quite how we... we may have just pledged that we had gone to a service. And that counted or whether you had to get some sort of document, but you were allowed a certain number of absences from that. So it was you know, it was very strict. In that regard. It was very Presbyterian.

You could not possess alcohol on campus.

I remember there was a guy who was driving back onto campus with his fraternity brother right beside him, who I think was on the honor court, or maybe not. But they stopped suddenly, a bottle rolled out from under the seat. The fraternity brother felt obliged to turn him in, and the guy didn't, didn't graduate with his class.

SS: Wow.

FG: I mean he was..

DK: Wow.

FG: He was that wrecked.

So I spent my junior year in France as I said. By the time I came back, it had all changed. and a lot of, you know, Vespers had been abolished the mandatory aspect of it, and the mandatory church attendance and those sorts of things...

But also remember how the students rebelled against some of that by for example, when you had to go to Vespers. They, they would wear t-shirts and shorts, and they would say, they were they said you got to wear a tie. So, they would move a tie around their t-shirt. Or they would hold up a newspaper and read it. I mean, there were just these little ways of rebelling against this enforced Christian conformity....

SS: Ah...

FG: That we was connected to. And I don't think that was necessary on my senior year by the time I came back.

DK: Hm... But your time in France was almost formative in your Jewish identity. I know Montpellier has a pretty robust Jewish community... I wonder how well, so by the time you came back from France, were you more serious about thinking about practicing or identifying actively as Jewish? And was that possible at Davidson?

FG: It wasn't really possible at Davidson, then. I certainly was more engaged. This has been, this whole evolution was a, a gradual process.

During all of my more youthful years, I suppose until I became adult and finally decided that I wanted to formerly convert, because I felt that I was something of an imposter.

Before I was not really Jewish, I hadn't gone through a conversion experience. So when I, you know, I'd been in this Jewish organization in Montpellier.

I'd worked on this kibbutz and really wanted to make Aliyah. I thought I would come back and finish at Davidson, and I would probably come back, you know, would probably come back to Israel. It was a wonderful experience working on the kibbutz that summer in Israel. And so, all of that certainly had a positive influence in my engagement with Judaism.

It even affected my choice of branch in the army, because when it came time to graduate from Davidson and get a condition that-- Most people chose non combatted branches, like the Quartermaster Corps, or the Adjutant General Corps, or military intelligence, or whatever, and I, I chose the infantry. And I asked to be sent to the desert warfare Training Center at Fort Irwin, California, because I thought there would be a war in the Middle East. And of course, there was, the summer I graduated, 1967. But it was over so quickly, that the I thought the US would be involved. And it was not, and that's a good thing.

But, but at the time, that's, I was so committed to, even to the point of wanting to fight for Israel...

SS: Yeah.

FG: Even if it were…

SS: Yeah.

FG: the armed forces of my country...

DK: Wow.

FG: So that's...that's basically it.

DK: That's incredible. I mean, I, I would love to ask you more questions about your personal experience. We're just limited by the scope of this project and thinking that Davidson as an institution.

FG: Fire away, whatever you want...

DK: Was Max Polley employed by around your time?

FG: Was Max Polley? Yes.

DK: Yeah, were there--..

FG: I love Max... He was a wonderful professor.

DK: Were there people on campus that could help you explore this identity? I mean, it, it was almost impossible to practice, from what we've heard that being Jewish in the ‘60s and ‘70s...as far as like keeping Shabbat or even keeping Yom Kippur, keeping Passover, very difficult.

But were there people on campus, you could go to, like Max Polley?

FG: You know, they're, they're really weren't. I mean...

Max Polley would have been a good person to go to, and I really liked him and had a good relationship with him. I don't recall that we talked so much about Judaism.

There was a professor who, a younger professor whose name escapes me right now...

But I have, let's see, I have it on my shelf. I'm looking to see I, he taught and a sort of a non-credit course in Hebrew, biblical Hebrew, and I took it. And it was just an elective. I mean, people who, and obviously everybody else in the class was going into the ministry...save me.

But I, I took that. I had learned a bit of Hebrew when I was in Israel and, and wanted to pursue that. And so, I talked with him, and he certainly knew that I was not headed for the ministry, and rather, I was coming at it from a Jewish perspective. But I, I don't remember any conversations with any of the other religion faculty. I actually had more hours in religion.

I... Davidson had such a strong department in religion, but I found Biblical Studies particularly fascinating, and I had more hours in religion than I did in my minor.

I had, you know, more of my major, which was French, my minor was German. But I had more more hours in religion, because I just felt that it was such a fascinating topic, and it was so well taught at Davidson.

DK: And this was during the period where religion, professors in religion were required to have not an MDiv, but were required to have been ordained essentially, right?

FG: I, you know, I knew they had to be Presbyterian. I wasn't sure they had to be ordained. That doesn't surprise me at all. I know, all the faculty had to be Presbyterian. I remember after I graduated, there was an issue with a Jewish professor who had been offered a position.

SS: We were going to ask about the Linden Affair.

FG: You even know about that?

DK: Yeah.

FG: I wrote a blistering letter to Davidson. One of my classmates resurrected and sent to me. I'd sort of forgotten about it. Just really taking them to task for how they would not either wouldn't hire him or wouldn't provide him wouldn't put him on a tenure track. I don't remember the issue.

DK: Do you remember how you heard about the Linden affair?

SS: Yeah.

FG: I don't know whether I heard about it from a classmate.

I have a lot of good friends, who were my classmates that we gather, annually and have gone, swamp canoeing for the last 30 some years. They're a great bunch of folks. Most of them had become civil rights lawyers like I was, but some did other things. And it may have been one of those guys, because most of them are from Charlotte... and are closer to Davidson and had heard about it. But somehow, I don't know if it was in the Charlotte Observer or I doubt Davidson itself sent out anything then.

SS: I don't think they did. We, it was in the Washington Post. And the New York Times.

FG: Yeah, yeah. So anyhow, somehow, I heard about it, and maybe if I look back at the letter that will reveal how I heard about it.

SS: Yeah.

FG: I may have told Davidson how I'd heard about it, but I, you know, I was pretty outraged about that.

And I mentioned working with Carolina Jews for Justice now, and which is a fairly new organization. We were founded in 2013, in the Triangle, and the Asheville chapter was founded in early 2014. And one of our main focuses is antisemitism.

And we do other... economic justice, racial justice, the intersection between antisemitism and racial, racism and white nationalism, all of those things. So I was pretty attuned to things of that nature... Really...

SS: Do you remember getting a response to your letter?

FG: I don't remember getting a response. Um... I think I could, I may be able to find out whether I did or not. If I look where the letter is. I'm not sure they responded to me.

Or, it may have been some sort of thank you for your views we'll take them into consideration. 00:24:00I don't know. You know, some meaningless? I don't know. Honestly, I don't know.

SS: Interesting. I do want to know a little bit more about the about the surrounding town. Did you hear of people? I guess there weren't Jewish students here but... Jewish families in the in Davidson or in Charlotte, did you have any contacts kind of in the in the broader Charlotte area while you were here at Davidson at all, or no?

FG: No, none, none at all.

SS: Okay.

FG: Yeah...yeah I was completely isolated I felt, and I think I could have I could have changed that.

I probably could have reached out and searched for connections in Charlotte. I don't think there were any connections at Davidson.

In fact, you know, I was, I was back there for my 50th reunion a couple of years ago. I was astounded to learn there was a Hillel at Davidson.

I did not know that. And I talked with Carol Quillen, you know about some of this at either at that reunion, or, or maybe I was there for some other reason earlier. And she was quite, of course, welcoming and positive and... hopeful that things had changed, because I described a little bit to her about how things had been back in the day.

SS: And as an alum, have had you heard of any other incidents of antisemitism at Davidson, aside from Linden? And then we do want to talk about the recent unmasking of the Neo-Nazis this past fall. Had you heard of any other incidents? By word of mouth or...

FG: No. I have not heard of them. You know, I don't doubt that there have been things that have occurred. But, you know, I don't often go back to the campus. As I said, I went back for my 50th. And part of that was because for whatever reason, they decided to give me the Distinguished Alumni Award.

And so I yeah, and I enjoyed seeing my classmates, but but I'm not a regular visitor to the campus.

SS: Okay.

FG: If I'm down that way, I may stop off and buy a new t-shirt or sweatshirt if I've worn the other one out.

So, I don't I really don't know. And I, and I need to be better informed about the more recent episode that you're talking about... with this thing on campus. One of my Charlotte friends did tell me about that. But I don't know the details about that. I would be interested to know.

DK: Just kind of getting back to what it was like being a student at Davidson, who, even though you were not super sure of identifying as Jewish, or you weren't identifying as Jewish, at least not Presbyterian. Were there other students on campus who are maybe not questioning their faith, but going through a kind of similar... experience at the very least?

FG: Yeah, I think that's true.

And, I mean, I clearly was, I was not only rejecting being Presbyterian, but being Christian at all. You know, I just, I pretty clearly well, definitely clearly decided that was, that was not for me.

And I think, I think having done the reading I had done before getting to Davidson prepared me somewhat for what students, freshman were taught in Bible class when they got there. Because I think a lot of Davidson students, at least at that time, came to Davidson fairly naive about religion and fairly certain of their beliefs... from a pretty conservative Christian point of view, at least theologically, and maybe politically as well.

And I know, I know that, for a lot of my classmates, they were really shaken by what they learned in the religion classes about, you know, the strands of authorship of the Bible, and some of the contradictions and just, just the historical, biblical scholarship approach was new to them. 00:28:00And I think undermined, for some of them, their, their foundations and faith.

And for me, that certainly was not the case. I just really relished all of that learning and embraced it and found it fascinating. But I think it's because I, for better or worse, not intentionally, but I prepared myself for that, by the reading that I had done. So, I think there were a lot of students who are questioning their faith. I think that's probably not unusual, when one goes to college. You know, I think there are a lot of changes to take place.

I don't know if anyone else who specifically became interested in Judaism. Or I think there were some who became agnostic or atheist, but I don't know of anyone else. I would love to have found them who, who turned towards Judaism.

DK: Did you feel like your experience paralleled? So, you said you dated a Catholic girl. Did you feel like your experience-- sorry, paralleled her experience in some ways? I feel like we've talked to some Catholic, even professors here who say to us, oh, like I was seen as a pagan when I came to Davidson.

FG: Yeah, I, you know, I, my friend, is somebody I had known from this area, and truth, you know, I think that's an accurate comparison.

There were there were just about as few Catholics in the town I grew up in as, as there were Jews, and, and there are very biased attitudes towards Roman Catholics. And or there were at least at the time I grew up, and I think probably still are. So... I don't know that that's something she and I ever really discussed. And it was not, I mean, it was several months I dated her. And then I think she would have been happy as a nun. And I was not, I didn't see much of a future in continuing to date her. Anyhow...

Yeah, I think I think that's an apt situation. One of my very good friends in high school was Catholic, and he was picked on and, you know, I kind of took up for him and befriended him. And he has never forgotten that. I mean, to this day, he lives in California, but he, he reminds me that he saw me as a friend when a lot of others did not approach him.

DK: I mean, that kind of builds into my next question, which is, did you, how did you feel like your non-Jewish peers understood or imagined Judaism at the time at Davidson?

FG: I don't think they had much of a clue. I don't, I think... And mind you, I was not a really good font of knowledge for them, either at that point.

I was still learning. At that time, I really didn't know Hebrew.

I didn't know much about ritual observance or practice.

I didn't attend synagogue, so I've evolved a lot and learned a lot.

And I think my peers did not know much about Judaism at all. And I think that's why, you know, when they call me, “Rabbi”, it was a little bit teasing. It wasn't pejorative, but it was joking and teasing, like,” isn’t that kind of odd, Frank, is interested in Judaism, you know, let's call him “Rabbi.””

SS: And we spoke about Vespers, were there other like, traditions, religious traditions, or even like broader structures that were present at Davidson while you were here, that were kind of ingrained in the in the everyday or even within like fraternity life?

FG: I think, I don't think so much in fraternity life. It was more modeled after… a Roman orgy or some... That's not really true. Davidson was, you couldn't have alcohol and there were no women. So...

SS: Right.

FG: You could do, but. I don't, I don't know that it was a particularly religious atmosphere in the fraternities.

You know, Christianity clearly...

Davison was imbued with it. And in the religion classes, I think there was an assumption that when they talked about the Old Testament, and it was pointing towards the New Testament, and certainly the even among these professors that I so much admired, who were brilliant men, they were all men.

You know, there was still that, that Christian take on things, even though it was done with a very scholarly view. And, and then, you know, you had the church being pretty prominent on campus and the services and the Vespers and there was a daytime chapel as a student assembly. And it seems like every, it wasn't always a religious theme, but periodically, there would be some religious component to that, to these mandatory assemblies, we went to.

DK: Right. People saying prayers before meetings, you know, praising Jesus like that, that seems to be kind of just like baked into the everyday experience of Davidson.

FG: Yeah, I'm... It was probably so common that I didn't take note of it.

DK: Yeah, I wouldn't doubt it.

SS: That makes sense.

FG: And I have no doubt that it-- things like that grated on me in some sense. I didn't think it was right. But you know, what am I gonna do? I'm at Davidson. It's a Presbyterian school, and... I'm not going to change that by myself.

DK: Just to be like, very explicit, this is a question we ask everyone: Not, I guess we have to alter it a little bit to what affected you, I guess, see antisemitism in the town, or in or in the... at the college or in the surrounding town?

If it were, if it was just kind of like offhand jokes, or somebody saying something. I mean, it was a very different time as far as Jews in America goes. And I'm sure that Davidson being what it was back then nobody had really interacted with Jews, unless they were from Charleston, or Atlanta.

FG: Yeah, I don't have any specific memory of antisemitic incidents while I was there. ...And part of that may be because there were no Jews. And, you know, there was hardly any point then to saying something antisemitic. Because, you know, who are they going to be talking about when they do that?

Probably, if I were able just to turn back the clock and replay everything, something would strike me as being that kind of comment. But I don't recall hearing anything in the town, or in the surrounding area, or on campus at that time. That I that I remember, at least in part, you know, I mean, this is a long time ago, over 50 years ago, so my memory could be flawed as well.

SS: Your story is so is, is so different than so many others, because this was you were not you not I mean, Jewish life here was so different nonexistent. And you weren't formally Jewish. So it but it's still so valuable.

DK: The funny thing is you're also not the first person you've heard of who converted or...

SS: Yeah.

DK: began exploring Judaism after leaving Davidson. We've caught wind of another alum who kind of had a similar experience.

FG: Is that right?

DK: Yes. So, it's something I mean something to dig into, at the very least.

FG: Well you know, for a while I was thinking, well, I must be the only Davison alumnus who's become president of a synagogue and a Torah reader and the service leader and all that, but I'm sure that's not true now. I mean, there must be a lot of well, a lot. There must be a number of others, who have pursued Judaism become more involved with it and more, you know, more engaged with the the observance, the synagogue life after that.

SS: We also heard with what with Rob Spach coming, he is our current chaplain. He brought, he brought about a lot of change as well. And he's been super supportive to, to both Dahlia and I and the Hillel group at large. Given that we do have relationship with the rabbi, but Rob.

DK: Rob has been incredible

SS: Rob has been instrumental. Yeah...

FG: That's great.

SS: And also, yeah, there is an alum, anonymous donor who's kind of who has funded a trip to Poland and England for the, for the next well four years now that Dahlia and I were able to go on last spring break.

FG: Oh wow.

SS: So we yeah, we visited some concentration camps and kind of juxtaposed that visit with more contemporary life in in London, which was awesome. And I'd never thought that'd be part of my Davidson experience. So...

DK: Yeah.

FG: Yeah.

FG: I remember, when I the year I was in France, I hitchhiked to into Germany, and I, I went to Dachau. And, you know, there's like, only 20 years after the war had ended. So it was... it was an interesting experience. That's the only former camp I was able to get to. That's great. It sounds like things are growing and thriving Davidson. And that's a wonderful thing.

DK: Absolutely.

FG:...When I was there for many, many years was [college chaplain and D.C.P.C. minister] Will Terry. I don't know if you've heard.

SS: Oh yeah.

DK: Yep.

SS: Yep.

DK: Yeah we know who Will Terry is.

FG: And I got along fine with Will Terry. I don't know that he had any particular interest in religious diversity. But he was, he was a, you know, he, I think he tried his best to, you know, to be a friend to the students and a counselor to them in different ways.

DK: Do you think if you were to come if you went to him and said, I'm thinking about all of these Jewish things, he would say to you, that's lovely. Like, go for it? Or here's the name of a Rabbi in Charlotte, or just like, I don't know how to help you.

FG: I, I, you know, that's a good question. And unfortunately, I can't ask it of Will because I think he passed away...ago,, but it may have been the third and I don't know how to help you with that. I don't know. I don't want to underestimate him. He may have had ideas, but I'll bet nobody came to him and asked him that. Because I don't know who would have at that point.

DK: May have been some closeted Jews.

SS: Maybe.

DK: Yeah.

FG: Yeah, yeah.

DK: Do you think-- and this is just kind of a, this is going to be a very big question. But thinking about your own Judaism and Tikkun Olam, and even a passion for social justice? Do you think Davidson instilled that in you? Because I feel like something we talk about a lot at Davidson now is humane values, and essentially, like putting good back into the world. And there are a lot of Jewish alums who are very concerned with working with organizations like JFREJ or JOIN and understanding their Judaism as a means to social justice.

Do you think Davidson had a hand in that? Or was that something that you kind of independently came to through your own religious education?

FG: I, I think if it would have been a pretty tangential influence, if there was one... I mean, I already came to Davidson as I've said, having, you know, read about prejudice and that sort of thing. And I was pretty much on the path towards liberalism. And, and was a lot more progressive than I think almost all of my contemporaries there. I, I don't know if you have heard about Students for Democratic Society back in the 60s.

DK: Oh yes, oh cool.

FG: So, we didn't have SDS in the South, what we had in the south was the Southern Student Organizing Committee. And I was I formed a chapter of SSOC at Davidson. I was one of the cofounders and SSOC was designed to be sort of provocative. Its, its button, its emblem was a confederate flag, with a black and white hand crossed over it.

You know like that. And, and we did things like picket a textile mills, you know, where they were workers were on strike or support the civil rights movement and things like that. So I, I don't think any of that involvement in social justice issues was instigated in me by being at Davidson. In fact, I think Davidson, for the most part was not at all very enthusiastic about its students participating in things like that, you know.

So, you know, on the other hand, I mean, I do think Davidson teaches a certain moral compass that's very strong. I mean, I think the honor system is real, and was a good influence. I think there is a lot of ethical teaching that goes on there, and certainly in the religion department and elsewhere. And, and I think the culture of the campus is an ethical sort of culture, from my experience there. Stressing honesty and doing the right thing.

And so, I don't think that that was intended to lead us into a path of social justice and Tikkun Olam by any means. Not that they would have even known what that is necessarily. I, you know... it is part of my values. I can't deny that, you know,

DK: Certainly

FG: Formation of my character, I'd say.

SS: Yeah. What year did you found the Southern Student Organizing Committee just to get the timeline down.

FG: 1960...it was my senior year. So I think it was 1966 after I got back from France. That's my recollection of it.

SS: Did you live in France after graduating?

FG: What's that?

SS: Did you live in France after graduating?

FG: I didn't no. No, I went into the I went to law school. I thought I was going to go in the army. I got a delay to go to law school at Chapel Hill, and then I went in the army on active duty for a couple of years.

So I never got back. I mean, I've been to France to visit hoping to go again because my son is going to be working over there this summer and taking his family to Orleans, so I can't resist going to visit him. But I never returned to live overseas after that.

DK: Just a this is another-- I don't actually know the dates he worked at Davidson-- was Alan Singerman employed at Davidson during your time there in the French department?

FG: No, I don't think so... We had Joe Embry and Walter Meeks and a professor who's from Valdese. It's a Waldensian name. I can't remember his name. Anyhow there were, there were maybe four French professors, but not him. So...

DK: He was the one of the first Jewish professors tenured at Davidson, which is why I asked.

FG: Is that right? Well, that had to have been long after my time.

DK: Yeah

SS: Yeah I guess so.

DK: Of course. But I wasn't sure if he was kind of floating around.

FG: ...Especially being a French major I would have loved that.

DK: Yeah, absolutely.

SS: That would have been great.... What else?

DK: I guess we can get into the Twitter Nazis now.

FG: Tell me about that.

DK: Where do you even begin?

About two weeks after the Pittsburgh shooting, some--? So a socialist collective in North, in Shelby, North Carolina, tweeted at the college saying that they had basically matched two Nazi Twitter feeds to two Twitter feeds of students who went to Davidson.

That's called doxing, essentially, when you reveal the identity of someone who is affiliated with kind of fascist politics.

And so, they tweeted at the college and it was picked up by a couple of students. Coincidentally enough, I was walking to a Hillel-- we were at a Hillel meeting when this happened.

So there was a group of 12 Jewish students like meeting in a room in Chambers.

And I got a call from a friend of mine who said, Have you seen these tweets? And one of the students who was a senior and a physics major, I believe, basically had become radicalized during her time at Davidson, probably by her boyfriend, who also was a student here. ...And her tweets were essentially things like... just unrepeatable kind of.

FG: Really?

SS/DK: Antisemitic, racist

DK: anti-immigrant. Really...

SS: Everything you name it.

DK: Yeah. And...

FG: So radicalized in a right-wing way I take it.

DK/SS: Yes.

SS: She arrived here completely...

DK: Well, people believe her to have been kind of, I think one student put, it a garden variety liberal like Hillary sticker on her laptop, kind of nice girl. She was from the town of Davidson.

SS: Her family is from the town, her family has been from Davidson for quite some time.

DK: Both of her parents went here.

SS: Yeah. so a lot of people knew of her. And then her name was leaked her identity was leaked and campus kind of went into this frenzy.

DK: It was… it was shocking. I mean, tweets like gas the kikes. I don't know.

SS: Images from the Pittsburgh shooting even...

DK: I believe I don't know about the Pittsburgh shooting, but...

SS: No, I think there was. Yeah, it was horrible. We were all in a room like Dahlia said in Chambers. President Quillen actually came to that meeting, and said, are like, do you guys want to stay at my house? Like I'm here for you blah, blah. But yeah, I mean...

DK: It was just deeply upsetting. And...

SS: Tumultuous.

DK: Yeah, there were questions of the school, communicating with the student body. And at what point did they know what?

SS: Questions of safety...

DK: Exactly.

SS: And the removal of the students off campus as well.

DK: Yeah, under what circumstances? Were they barred? Not barred from returning to Davidson, or whether they were asked to leave or expelled or whether it's even possible to be expelled from Davidson for tweeting things like gas the kikes, essentially.

FG: So, what happened to that student? Or was it just that student?

SS: So, it was that student and her and her partner, her significant other, her boyfriend. They were taken off campus that night that they were doxed on Twitter. So, they were taken off campus, and the school did communicate that to the students who were...the morning after. So that was the whole thing. So a lot of students, including myself, felt unsafe. And... so then we learned the next day they were taken off campus, and they they're not they've not returned to Davidson, since.

FG: Wow, I wonder how their parents her parents...

SS: Right, especially since there's a, they have a relationship with the college. Yeah...

FG: Oh, wow...Well.

DK: And both, I don't know if both were in ROTC, but at least she was in ROTC.

FG: Uh huh.

DK: So people were tweeting at ROTC command saying like, can you believe this? And yeah, I...don't know

FG: How, how prevalent is ROTC? Now, I mean, is it it's certainly not mandatory anymore. Is it?

SS: Oh no, no.

DK: It exists. You see them on the Cross-Country trails running drills sometimes.

FG: Yeah.

DK: But I wouldn't say that they have a particularly strong presence on campus.

FG: It was funny when I was there, you know, you had it. You did it one semester, and you were off the next semester and see you, you marched around. And the semester you were off, people would get on the roof of Duke dorm and throw acorns or something down on they would pelt the helmets of their classmates who were walking by it was it was just a big lark. You know... 00:48:00nobody was terribly serious. Well, some people were. There was a guy who tried to form and did form, I think a little a sort of a special forces unit of ROTC on campus. Which, he was a bit of a nut.

SS: Acorns and all. That's a lot. Yeah, no. So we did want to mention Neo-Nazi presence. Just, well, I'm glad we were able to talk about that. But just to see if you had heard about it and, and kind of what it was like to hear about it.

FG: Yeah, I'd heard about it, but not in that much detail. And I think I had heard, in fact, there was a message that went out to the alumni network that puzzled me because it didn't give much background. And so I wasn't really clear what they were talking about, but sort of an apologetic message but that they had dealt with or we're dealing with the problem. And always well, I guess...

SS: That's what we were kind of getting as well.

DK: Yeah. Even though it did not feel like all was well.

SS: No, no, no.

FG: Right. Right. Yeah.

DK: Um...

SS: Yeah. So I mean, that and, and a lot of other things have kind of... created an impetus for a push for Jewish Studies at Davidson. So Dahlia and myself and a few others, composed a petition that we sent out, I guess, in early or late January. Now it feels like a bit ago. But we got over 1000 signatures... For in support of this, a Jewish Studies Program at Davidson. And a couple weeks ago, Davidson posted up their first ever posting for a professor in Jewish Studies in the History department, a visiting professorship.

FG: Oh, that's wonderful. 1000 signatures over the enrollment. Now it is that's a significant...

SS: Yeah. It was also alums and friends of the college.

DK: Ron Linden signed the petition.

SS: Ron Linden did sign the petition.

FG: Well, a really good friend of mine is the retiring director of the Center for Jewish Studies at UNC Asheville. They are engaged right now in a search for a new director, who also has to, they can't afford just to hire a director. So that person has to also be a professor in some department. 00:50:00And the department ironically, maybe that is in need of a professor is the German department. So we've had these three, German Jewish and I mean, they're not originally from Germany, necessarily, but they are they're scholars in German. But also they are Jewish. And our, and a lot of their work has been in Jewish Studies. And they've been giving lectures lately to people as part of their part of that process. So we expect the decision to be announced. I think pretty soon.

DK: That's really awesome. Yeah, I mean, like, as yeah, as we've been advocating for this, it was not just we published a petition, the school said, yes.

SS: No

DK: There was a lot of other stuff that went into it, too. But as we've been kind of engaging in this advocacy, it's also spurred us to kind of connect with other Jewish communities throughout the throughout North Carolina. So, UNC Chapel is actually one--

FG: Yeah.

DK: --school that we have connected to. Elon,

SS: Yeah, Queens.

DK: NC State. I mean, that kind of...situation...

FG: Right, right.

DK: And it's been really exciting.

FG: Yeah, yeah I think that's going to be a really good catalyst for, you know, the vitality of the Jewish experience on campus.

DK: Oh 100%

FG: Great. Yeah.

SS: Yeah, it's been, it's been a journey, but it's been really, really worthwhile.

DK: So I mean, finishing up.

SS: Yeah.

DK: Who else should we talk to you? Do you know of anybody else who would be interested in this project? Or who might have something to say?

FG: Well, um, you know, I mean, the only other Jewish students that I knew when I was there was Arnie, Arnie Goodstein in Charleston. I have no idea what he is doing. He became... he was from a prominent family in Charleston, you know, that's a really old community down there, the Jewish community in Charleston.

SS: Yeah.

FG: And Arnie became a state legislator. In fact, if you go around Charleston, now there's the Arnie Goodstein freeway or something like on the outskirts. So, I have no idea how he could be reached, the alumni office may be able to help. But from my era, he's the only other person that I can think of. And he would have been in the class of 66. I...

DK: Great.

FG: Yeah.

SS: Great. Yeah. And if you can think of anyone else over the next couple of weeks, let us know.

DK: Yeah.

FG: Yeah. Yeah, I'll do that.

SS: Non-Jewish too.

FG: Right, including people who were there after I was there, if I can think of somebody.

SS: Yeah

FG: You know...

SS: All of that is helpful. That's great.

FG: And I will, I will remember, and if I appear to have forgotten, you can email me but I'll dig out my letter to Davidson about Professor Linden.

SS: That would be fantastic. And we're going to record the panel with Linden next week. So I can send that over to you too.

FG: Yeah, if there's a link, you could send, I'd love to see that.

SS: Yes, And, we'll send you the final product for this project, as well as just every we'll update you as we can, throughout this the remainder of the semester. This is going to be an ongoing project. It… yeah, again, there's so many people we want to talk to and not a lot of time.

FG: So, is it just the two of you you doing this, or are there others involved?

SS: Well it feels like it's just the two of us sometimes. But um, we've, we've been doing a lot of the oral histories with Jewish alums. And it feels right, because we're Jewish students here. We have a lot of other non-Jews in the independent study, which is really great. So some other folks are focusing more on the history. So, going digging into the Davidsonians and kind of creating a narrative about specific institutional structures and policies throughout throughout the throughout time at Davidson, and then the oral history component and the Linden visit is part of it. So there are I believe there are eight of us in the end, that's it, which is pretty great.

FG: Great. Wonderful

DK: And, and we before we sign off, is there anything else you'd like us to record for posterity?

FG: Um, no, I really can't think of anything.

You know, I would just say that, increasingly, since I left Davidson, Judaism became a more and more important part of my life. And... you know I can't overstate that, it's really been very significant to me.

And you know I've mentioned Carolina Jews for Justice? So I became a civil rights lawyer, for the most part, I did employment discrimination and civil rights work and other kinds of law.

And then on a separate track, religiously, I was Jewish, and I was engaged with the synagogue.

And what Carolina Jews for Justice has done is to meld those two aspects of my life. This passion for social justice and civil rights on the secular side with being able to do it using... Jewish text and the many sources of inspiration for that that we find in Jewish literature.

So I'm as engaged or more as I ever had been, ever have been in Judaism, particularly in the social justice aspect of it. And... I wish I could credit Davidson for planting that seed, but I don't honestly can but it certainly, at least it didn't squash it out of me either.

SS: That's true.

DK: Sometimes that's all you can ask for.

FG: Yeah, right. Sometimes that's enough, I guess. But yeah.

DK: Yeah. That's incredible. I'm so happy to hear that. I mean, like, I'm so happy for you.

SS: Yeah, me too.

FG: Yeah, me too.

DK: We so actually, those alums who are involved in JFREJ and JOIN, as I was mentioning, are coming to campus in April, to do an antisemitism training and to talk about actually the intersections of Judaism and social justice. I mean, like, as we're kind of entering a new moment politically, and a lot people in the left are reassessing, again, like where Jews fit and kind of like the grand scheme of things. I feel like it's really important for, again, our peers who are involved in like, essentially like this elemental struggle, or at least like some, some struggle for equity in this country. To come and talk about that. So if you want to come or even if Hillel is looking to do Hillel at Davidson is looking to do more. If Carolina Jews for Justice, the Asheville chapter or even the chapter in the Triangle has any anything we could do, we would absolutely love to.

FG: What we, we have a chapter in Charlotte. It's not a very strong chapter yet. Yeah and we're working on one in Greensboro. For a while we had one in Wilmington and the leadership kind of fell apart now there. So, we're trying to expand. We have two organizers who are super, they're wonderful organizers that we just hired, gosh, back in September, October, I think.

I'm, and I'm going to mention that, you know, I would love to see some involvement of Davidson. I know that there's a new Rabbi at Elon, and we've talked about bringing her I believe it's her into... Is it Sandra Lawson? Is that her name? I can't remember right now. And so, I'd like to know about the April... event down there. My Rabbi is involved with JOIN. He just got back from a training, I think, from JOIN. So, when is that in April?

DK: They're coming the weekend of April 11th. I'll check my calendar right now, we don't have a sense of exactly what they'll be doing, because it's a month away and life changes. But...

FG: Oh, you know, I think that may be the weekend of my holy swamp trip that I mentioned earlier with

SS: The tradition.

FG: I think we're going to be camping out on the Edisto river in South Carolina. I'm not sure about that. I need to check my calendar too. But shoot I would love to come down, but maybe there are other ways that I can make connections with Hillel.

SS: Definitely. In the coming years, please.

DK: Yeah, yeah. I mean, after I'm here for another two years. Sev has less of a lifespan. But...

SS: But hearing that is awesome.

DK: Yeah, we're really hoping the Jewish community at Davidson kind of becomes more public facing not just like here in the college community, but just more widely. I think making connections throughout the state is really important.

FG: Yeah. And, you know, there has been recently an effort to create a Jewish alumni network.

SS: Yes. That's how we found you.

FG: Yeah, okay. Yeah.

SS: It was perfect. They linked us up.

FG: Good. You know, we ought to be brainstorming ways we can support the students, you know, be supported by the students to some extent, you know, I mean, ways we can interact. It's still very much in the formative stages, and I just filled out a little survey of about it the other day, but that would be great.

SS: Yeah, I'm so excited to hear that as as I'm entering the real world.

FG: Yeah. Where are you headed after Davidson?

SS: I'm unsure. I'd love to be in, I'm from New Jersey. So New York would be great. Or I'm interviewing somewhere in Chicago this weekend. So big cities I love so we'll see.

FG: Going to just take a job. Are you going to grad school or?

SS: I'd love to I'd love to eventually go to grad school. But for the next two or three years, I'd like I'd like a job. And until then, yeah, I yeah. I I'm so burnt out right now. But I, you know, I'd love to pursue a degree maybe in higher ed down the line. So we'll see.

FG: That's great. Yeah. What are your What are your ambitions? ... For? After Davidson? I know you have two more years there. But...

SS: She has some time.

DK: Yeah, I think...

SS: She has to go abroad first.

DK: Yeah, I have to go abroad, and never come back, I think. I'll actually be in France, I'll be in Paris. I think the question is whether I'll apply for a fellowship and try and be abroad for longer. 01:00:00I think, I think grad school is also in my future and not just professional grad school. I think actually like getting a PhD might be the plan. But we'll see. Other than that, I think it's just go with the flow.

I've also kind of had, I'm from New York, so being Jewish in New York is kind of like having brown eyes. No one really cares. But coming to Davidson was really formative in that suddenly I felt like this aspect of my identity, like my parents aren't American, I'm mixed race. Like I felt like I was thinking about a lot of aspects of my identity in New York, but being Jewish was not one of them. And then I came here and I thought, Oh, my God, you know, there's so much work to be done. So the question is whether I'll pursue something Jewish, and it's looking like I will, after Davidson.

FG: Great, great. Well, I'm excited for both of you. This is great.

SS: Well, tThank you so much, this was lovely.

DK: Yeah, thank you so much for talking with us today.

SS: Yeah, we really, really, really appreciate it.

FG: I have enjoyed it. If you if you think of things you forgot to ask or you need more information, you know how to reach me. So...

DK: Absolutely.

SS: Thank you. And I'll send over the permissions form after, like this afternoon sometime. So...

FG: Okay, that sounds great.

SS/DK: Thank you so much.